Shannon Lanier
Jane Feldman
Co-Authors of "Jefferson’s Children: The Story of One American Family"
"Jefferson’s Children in Black and White"
February 11, 2002

Shannon Lanier: In first grade, it was President’s Day. I thought that this would be the perfect opportunity for me to tell everyone who I am related to. So, I stood up and said, "Thomas Jefferson is my great, great, great, great, great, great grandfather!" And the teacher said, "Sit down and stop telling lies." She was very disturbed. The teacher didn’t like the fact that I said that information. It was the truth. My mother came to school the next day and corrected the teacher. She told her that, in fact, I am a ninth generation descendent of the third President of the United States, Thomas Jefferson, and his slave, Sally Hemmings. It is basically through my family’s strong oral history that I have always known this information. But Jane, she found it a little bit different than I did.

Jane Feldman: As we travel and talk to people what fascinates us is how different people came to know the story. When we talked to many elders, 90-years-old, they have known this for 85 years very often. Other people learned when Dr. Foster’s findings when the DNA information was released in October of 1998. Other people first knew when they saw the Oprah show when they saw the family meet for the very first time.

What was fascinating to me was that, back in the 1970’s, I read Brody’s (??) book. I grew up in a very diverse community in New York City, and my fascination was that, as a white girl growing up in New York City, this was news to me and all my friends of color knew this information. So, I became fascinated with the fact that there were two histories and how was that possible.

When the DNA news broke, I was absolutely fascinated, and that sort of prompted this whole journey. I contacted Lucian K. Trustcott IV, who was a Jefferson who did acknowledge his Hemmings cousins and invited them initially to Monticello in May of 1999.

Lanier: We’ll go back to one of the people who started this whole thing–Thomas Jefferson. You all know that he was the author of the Declaration of Independence and the third president, but I know that Jane likes to speak of him as a man of many contradictions.

Feldman: Again, I am a little embarrassed to talk about that, because we also have, seated in this room whom we consulted, scholars who know quite a bit more about Mr. Jefferson. Cinder Stanton (??) our research scholar from Monticello is with us here tonight. We do talk about the contradiction because Jefferson had many contradictions. Obviously, he was a man who hated politics, and yet, as an architect in the whole notion of reconstructing a nation was what was so appealing to him. He did want to abolish slavery, but he believed in an agrarian society–who was it, in fact, who was going to work the fields? We talk about that all the time. He hated public speaking, and yet embraced the written work. There were many contradictions in understanding Jefferson that we think are important to know.

Lanier: Also, with Jefferson, he was married to his wife Martha for ten years until she died due to childbirth. But, it was on her deathbed that she made Thomas Jefferson vow to her to never remarry again. And he chose to do so. It was just six years after the death of his wife that he began a 38-year relationship with his slave, Sally Hemmings. One thing that many people may not be aware of is that Sally Hemmings and Thomas Jefferson’s wife were half sisters. Okay, so have Thomas Jefferson’s wife Martha and his slave Sally Hemmings–they had the same father, so they were half-sisters. A lot of people are astonished to hear that news and are a little unaware of that.

Feldman: Although we find that it is a point of fascination for us, too, because even those who, to this day, do not in fact believe that it was Thomas Jefferson but that it was his uncle or brother or cousin (or any number of male Jeffersons), they will not dispute the fact that Sally and Martha were half sisters because it is so well documented.

Lanier: For a more historical aspect on them, of course Jane mentioned a little bit, for Sally Hemming’s interview, we went to Beverly Gray (??) book to get her interview in the book, because we weren’t trying to get a bad book report, here. So, we went to the professionals Beverly Gray, the oral historian for Sally Hemmings, and then we went to Annette Gordon Reed for Thomas Jefferson’s essay. We also, again in the book, consulted a project at Monticello, so we had a lot of help from a lot of family members and friends on bringing this project to you.

Feldman: I think one thing also to mention, while you are looking up at an image of Sally Hemmings, we get asked this very often and this is a very difficult thing for us because a lot of our book is very visually driven. This was a commissioned painting. We morphed about 5 or 6 different current members of the Hemming’s line and took that and what we had learned from the folks at Monticello and other slave’s descriptions of her being might near white, long straight black hair. So we were able to take little bits of verbal discussion that we had heard, and again, took liberties in taking some of the faces and mixing them together. This is a presumption of what we might thing Sally looks like.

Lanier: Since we are talking about features and characteristics, we might move on to talk a little bit more about the DNA testing. Dr. Eugene Foster helped this family out with the DNA study. It was Dr. Foster’s DNA study in October of 1998, in conjunction with the historical information surrounding the family that provided the support to the family’s belief that Thomas Jefferson fathered many of Sally Hemming’s children. But, the main link was through Eston Hemmings.

They did not take the blood from Thomas Jefferson, but what they had to do was to take it from Thomas Jefferson’s uncle’s living descendent, because relatively, they would have the same DNA. In order to take it, they had to follow a sequential Y Chromosome in the family–meaning through all males. So, in order to do that through the Hemming’s side of the family, they took it from Sally Hemming’s and Thomas Jefferson’s last son, Eston Hemmings. They took a Y Chromosome all the way down to someone living today. I am a descendent of Thomas and Sally’s second to last son, Madison Hemmings. At that time, I was unable to give blood because I am related through my mother’s side of the family.

Feldman: Dr. Foster helped us prepare these charts tracing the Y Chromosome line. The fascinating thing for us, in doing the book, was the fact that we conducted so many interviews with members of the family. We have four generational voices that you will hear from–both Jefferson and Hemmings. Some of them who have always known, some who are first finding out the information, some who believe the story, some who still, to this day, refuse to believe this story. The most fascinating thing for me, in sitting with Dr. Foster after he explained how he had this scientific study done and how he came up with his conclusions, was that Dr. Foster sat with us and said, "well, but is it all about blood?" I am not sure that it is. One of the wonderful things that came up in his interview was the whole discussion of is it about blood? Or, is it in fact about your belief systems, your code of ethics, your morals, the values that you have been raised with, and who you have been taught that you are?

The exciting thing for Shannon and I, when we speak throughout the country, is to open this up for discussion. The amazing thing, when we talk to young kids about family, is often we ask them to define family for us. Blood usually comes up last, if at all. It is who loves you--gives you unconditional love–and who has got your back, and many other definitions. So, it is an amazing vehicle to open up discussion on matters of family and race, of course.

Lanier: And another thing, besides those discussions, there are some people still out there who believe that Thomas Jefferson is not the father of any of those children. They will stick to their guns until their death that he did not father any of those children. Since the DNA evidence is not 100% definite that he was a father, that is where their conclusion comes in that it could be anybody, a Jefferson, but not Thomas Jefferson. In the book we make sure we reported both sides of the story, so you could read the viewpoint of those people who say that Thomas Jefferson is not the father and you can read why they believe that. You can also read the stories of those people who say that he is definitely the father and that they have known this all their life. And then, there are those people who are still on the fence that say they don't know whether or not Thomas Jefferson is the father, but regardless, the Hemmings and the Jeffersons are still family because Martha and Sally were half sisters anyway.

So, you have a lot of different perspectives that you will read about in the book. One of the perspectives that everyone heard about was, ten days after the DNA results were released when the family appeared on the Oprah Winfrey Show. Myself, I was sitting in my dorm room in Kent State University and my mother called me on the phone. She said, "turn on the Oprah Show, the family is on!" I thought, "What? The Oprah Show? Oprah Winfrey?" So, I turned it on and, sure enough, my family was there. There were some people there that I had known my whole life, like my mother's brother, my Uncle Billy, my cousin Patty-Jo. But, there were also people that I had never seen before and they were on this show. Oprah was saying that they were family so I thought, "Okay, well if Oprah says so!" I don't know which is bigger--DNA or Oprah.

In this photo you will also see Lucian K. Truscott IV, and he was the one, who on the show invited the Hemmings descendants down to Monticello to meet the family. We will refer to the Jeffersons descendants as those from Thomas Jefferson's wife, Martha Jefferson. We will also refer to the Hemmings descendants as those from Sally Hemmings, Thomas Jefferson's slave, just for the sake of clarification.

Lucian made the invitation for the descendants to come down to Monticello, and when I heard that, I thought that this would be a great opportunity for me to go to Monticello to meet all the descendants of the people that I had been hearing about for all my life. Before, previous to this, I knew my nuclear family and some of the Madison descendants, but there were a lot of people out there that I did not know. This was my opportunity to finally go meet them.

Feldman: I also want to mention that it is kind of a bizarre thing if you can imagine meeting your family for the first time on national television in front of several million people. One of the things that we mention also, was that Oprah was sensitive enough to realize that the relatives might want to have some time to themselves, and there was a small luncheon that gathered the family after the show.

One of the interviews that we share later in the book was with Reverend William Douglas Banks, one of Shannon's cousins and also a Madison descendent. What occurred to Doug sitting at the table was that, here in fact was what Dr. King had talked about 40 years ago. The descendents of slaves and the descendents of slave masters sitting together at the table of brotherhood. This was all in one family, so it was really a remarkable thing.

Lanier: Not only was I watching the show, but Jane was watching the show also in New York. That is when she got the notion to go down after Lucian to get the invitation to take the picture.

Feldman: It's true. It is a little backwards. We didn't know each other at all. God bless Oprah. I was watching the show that day, in my fascination, having read all the press that had been released in the ten days prior to that. In watching the show that day, as a photographer, my work has always focused on families and on confronting racism.

As mentioned earlier, I had read Von Brody's book back in the 1970's, and I was fascinated with the discrepancies in our history. When I saw the family meet for the first time I thought, "I have got to photograph this family. This is the American family right here." I tried to contact Lucian Truscott and tell him that it was my hope to photograph those who did recognize each other as one family. Lucian did invite me to Monticello. Friends thought I was absolutely crazy when I told them that I was going to Virginia. I told them that I knew I had to go.

We talk about that and how this has been a very spiritual journey for us. We don't hold back on that because there are many forces that guided us and took part in all of this. I did get invited to Monticello by Lucian and I am sure that a lot of you read a lot of press about that day--May 15^th, 1999. It was not an easy day, to put it mildly. There were countless members of families, there were still tourists walking around and enjoying the wonderful view and the house that day. The press we found, unfortunately, to be quite divisive. Not all of them, but some of them. We saw of lot of people running around, presuming that all Hemmings looked one way, and all Jeffersons looked another way. And, it was reported that way. When you see everyone of Shannon's family, as with countless families, not everyone looks one way.

So, we went down to Monticello and met the family members. I went down with some preconceived notions. I thought that all Jeffersons were going to basically all be blue-blood scholars, Ivy League graduates, and very well accomplished people. What I could not get over, in meeting Hemmings descendents that day, was that I was meeting the descendents of the first black graduate of Vassar College, the first black graduate of MIT, the first black legislator of the state of California, military generals, and founders of universities and colleges. What occurred to me was that I really was meeting in fact one family that had been separated by history. Here were the Hemmings, having done this out of slavery, without the benefit of the Jefferson name. In that day, it was kind of a chaotic scene. Lucian said that he could not help me put this picture together, but the best thing that I could do was to get out there and talk to the family.

Well, this then-19-year-old kid came over and introduced himself as Shannon Lanier from Cincinnati (that's all one name, by the way), and said that he would like to talk to folks with me and basically see if he could help me to rally the family. Much to our surprise, there were about 25 to 30 people that were very happy about making a symbolic statement. There were some that would not like this photograph to be taken, and you can kind of imagine why.

There were a number of keynotes addressing the media at that point. We did not know that there was going to be any time, but there are advantages to being 19 and truly righteous when you think it is okay to run up the stairs, grab the microphone and say, "come on family, we need to get this picture taken."

Lanier: This is the first photo ever taken of the Jefferson and Hemmings family standing together as one American family on the steps of Monticello. Some people just stood off to the side in disgust and said that they were not having anything to do with the photo. I think those people with that type of attitude--not being open enough to try new things and to see this wonderful new family and to explore more about them--are the ones that are missing out. As Jane mentioned before, there are some great stories of accomplishments that both sides of the family have done. In hearing those stories, that is when Jane went back to New York and had to go wake up the Senior Vice President of Random House on a Sunday and say, "you'll never believe what I just did."

Well, as they say, we kind of broke some of the rules without meaning to. But, having done that, I was asked to have a proposal on her desk the next morning (not knowing what I was proposing).

Jane said that there was a book in there somewhere, but we just had to figure out what we want to do.

Feldman: I called Shannon and asked how he would feel about having in-depth interviews with the family members and learning more about them and photographing them and consulting scholars and historians and scientists. And, of course when you are 19 you say, "cool. Let's go." So, it was an amazing thing. We share this with you openly because any of you who have published books also know that it is not possible. But, we got a green light from Random House within 24 hours and they said, "go, now. Do it." So, during Shannon's summer vacation we set out through the United States and basically we decided to begin in the same steps as Shannon's ancestors as they traveled from slavery in Virginia to freedom in southern Ohio.

Lanier: Southern Ohio is still where a lot of the family stays. As she mentioned, I am from Cincinnati, Ohio. A lot of people were in the Ohio area, such as my Grandmother. But, while in Ohio, one of the first stops we made was with oral historian Beverly Gray. She is not a family member, but she is an oral historian who prides herself on collecting a lot of the history--documents, pictures and oral stories--of the family. She has been a great help to the family on finding information. Even though Beverly Gray is not in the family, she still knows a lot about my family history. That is why we went to see Beverly. While meeting with Beverly Gray, she took three generations of my family and Jane around to significant areas that were significant to my family.

One of the stops that we made was this graveyard (shown in the picture) to see the tombstone of Sarah, who was the daughter of Madison, making her the grand-daughter of Thomas Jefferson and Sally Hemmings. I was just taken aback from the experience of the feeling of being at that gravesite--in the same place that my family had once lived, in an area where they had raised their children. It was kind of touching for me being there. Not only did we go here, but we also went to my great-great-grandmother's house which Beverly taught us used to be a stop on the Underground Railroad.

As many of you know, once slaves got their freedom, they helped others get free. That is one case that happened in the Hemmings family.

Feldman: Absolutely. And, we also found that as they also were educated, they were very diligent to educate others. We found countless numbers of educators amongst the Hemmings family, which was also quite incredible to us as well.

Lanier: And, with my family, Beverly helped me put together a family tree, dating back 9 generations to Thomas Jefferson and Sally Hemmings. This may be a little nontraditional from what you are used to seeing because it starts with me. We felt that this would be the best way to present the family tree so you could understand it. You could do similar things with your family by putting your picture here and going down also. One of the things Beverly Gray made me do was to memorize each person's name in this family tree. I thought it would almost be impossible to memorize nine generations. But, I thought back to other cultures, and they have to remember a lot more than this, so I gave it a try and I think I have it down. Let's see: Thomas Jefferson and Sally Hemmings had Madison, Madison had Sarah, Sarah had Emma, Emma had Ella, Ella had Emily, Emily had Eddie, Eddie had Pricilla, and Pricilla had me. And that is my family tree.

You can kind of do the same thing with your family by putting into a little rhyme or rhythm--especially with children--so that they can remember their family tree, also.

Feldman: As Shannon was saying earlier about nine generations going back, we have had to be very sensitive in taking that kind of information out there. There are an awful lot of people that do not have famous ancestors who cannot quite go back as far. One of the things that we were talking about was that this was a cultural thing. We found, in the Hemmings family, many Native American tribes as is indicative of so many African American families. One of the things that is important to us is that one of the first times we spoke to a group of kids in a diverse community in New York was that there was a young African American who was 17 years old. He stood up and said that he did not even know who his father was and that it was a source of huge pain for him because he never would know. But, what was important to him, in sitting there that night and having that discussion, was that a legacy could start then and there. Even if he had not been as fortunate and blessed to know as much about his roots, he said that he could also take responsibility for his own life and hope that nine generations later, his descendents could look back with great pride.

That was and extraordinary moment. I still get very emotional thinking about that. But, part of this conversation can be very healing as well, so it is incredible what kind of dialogue takes place as a result of presenting this kind of information.

Lanier: And, speaking of dialogue taking place, this is one picture that causes a lot of dialogue to take place. My mother had this picture at her house and wen to her cousin's house and asked why she had a picture of my mom's family. The cousin asked my mom why she had a picture of the her family. My mother said that the people in the picture were her black ancestors and the cousin said that they were her white ancestors. It turns out that they were family members, both in one family.

The picture is of my great-great-great-grandmother and her husband right next to her. They were surrounded by their ten children in this photo. The reason why there was so much confusion between my mother and her cousin was because six of these children in this photo decided to pass for white and four of them remained in the black community.

I know some people do not necessarily understand "passing," but a lot of times it was an irreversible decision that people had to make, or a decision that was made for them by their parents. Living as a white person at that time, you had better educational and job opportunities, but mainly safety. They felt they could get better privileges living as white people at that time, so that is why a lot of passing took place. With a lot of parents telling their children that they were going to pass and that they would be sent up north to a cousin or a family member, so that they could live as a white person and not have to go through the struggles that we have gone through.

But with those privileges--the education, the jobs, the safety--came, unfortunately, disadvantages. They had to disconnect themselves from the family they had always known. There were a lot of cases when they were never allowed to talk to each other. We have heard of cases where there were siblings--one that passed and one that did not pass--walking down the street and they could not even make eye contact or talk to each other because if someone did find out that they were passing, they might put threats on them, kill their family, etc. There were a lot of horrible things done back then, that's why so many things were done to protect people who were passing at that time.

Unfortunately, we still do not know a lot of the family members--who they are or where they are. They might not know who they are. My mother says all the time that she could be sitting in a café next to her cousin and not even know that that is her cousin because there has been so much passing that has happened in families.

Feldman: One of the things that has been most rewarding for us in taking this information out into all over the country is that it gives certain people permission to talk about passing. Passing is very painful for countless families and one of the reasons again, in seeing Shannon's family and the old photographs, is it really in fact holding a mirror up to America. This goes on in countless American families--it is not just a Jefferson/Hemmings story by any stretch of the imagination, and it is really important to have that dialogue. Especially when we go into white communities. So many have never reached this conversation. Statistical information (and I believe conservative statistical information) states that perhaps 20% of white America has black blood in is completely unaware of it. To have this conversation very openly, I think, is very important.

Lanier: Since so many family lines of my family were lost, we work hard to preserve the family we do know today. This is a picture of my current family and you see the diverse colors in this family. People like to look at this picture and say, "that's a rainbow family, there!" How many of you in the audience have rainbow families? Anyone? Okay, so a lot of hands out there. When we go to the younger schools, a lot of times around 80% of the hands go up in the rooms because the schools are diverse. We think it important for them to see a family that resembles that because so many times people are forced to look at a white family or a black family, but with this family and this picture you can look at as a representation, they have a rainbow family they can look at and be proud of.

Feldman: On top of that, as we have said with Dr. Foster, too, in the whole discussion of blood--so many kids have come up to us that are either in adopted or foster families. To them, this gives them the permission to know that they don't have to look all alike to be a family. They still all love each other.

One of the great joys for me, as a photographer, is that a picture tells a thousand words--you can see the love in the picture, we don't need to sit here and tell you all how to feel about each other.

Lanier: My cousins may range from platinum blonde hair and brown eyes to black hair, but they are still one family and love each other, regardless, like every other family does.